Demand Generation Strategy
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In this episode on Demand Generation, we interview Thomas Cyr at Shopify. Maximize Your Lead Generation at the Top of the Funnel with Thomas Cyr @ Shopify In this episode we talk to Thomas Cyr, the Head of Global Demand Generation at Shopify, one of the leading e-commerce platforms for brands both big and small. Thomas offers advice on promoting your brand through various avenues, including rapidly growing platforms such as TikTok and Yahoo. Grab that cup of coffee, and let's dive in...
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00:00 About Us (here)
[Music]
00:25 Introduction (here)
Get ready for some tech talk over coffee, where we filter through the latest digital tech one sip at a time.
Welcome to The Filtered Brew, a tech podcast all about software.
Your host is Digital Consultant, Preston Hurd.
So join us for a cup of coffee, and let's get into what's brewing on, today's menu.
In this episode, we are interviewing Thomas Cyr.
And if you're at all involved in E commerce, you want to give this next interview a listen.
Thomas is currently the head of Pipeline Generation at Shopify, one of the leading E commerce platforms for brands both big and small.
Thomas has worked previously in areas such as Performance Marketing and Lead Generation at Brex and Glassdoor.
With this, he has been involved in multiple stages of the Sales and Marketing Pipeline, and he's able to provide some great insights from his comprehensive background.
My name is Nick, and also joining us is your host, Digital Consultant Preston Hurd, bringing his unique 'Retail Spin' to the conversation.
So grab your cup of coffee and get ready. Here's our interview with Thomas Cyr.
So, Thomas, Nick and I are super excited to have you on today.
The last couple episodes have been about Sales, Inside Sales, Outside Sales, and we are so looking forward to giving our listeners your perspective, going up to the very top of the funnel, talking about Lead Generation, Demand Generation, and really tying all that together with Sales and Marketing alignment.
02:14 Defining Demand Gen
And so, without further ado, Nick, let's get into it.
Thomas, we're really excited to have you on the show.
And like Preston mentioned, we're just going to jump right into things.
Demand Generation is one of those things that I have to imagine is a term that gets misused every so often, maybe used interchangeably with other roles.
So with that in mind, what would you say is the difference between Demand Generation versus Lead Generation versus Inbound Marketing?
That's a great question. And you know, when you look at job postings today, it's kind of like, what exactly do they need?
You see those phrases thrown around pretty loosely now.
And I think what Demand Generation was historically versus what it really captures now is much different from when I started my career.
So when I think of the difference between the three - Demand Generation, Lead Generation and Inbound Marketing, I'd say separate Inbound Marketing out of that, right. Inbound Marketing is just a result of well executed Demand Generation.
And so then when you think about Demand Generation, there's really two sides of the coin is the way I like to look at it.
There's Demand Capture and there's Demand Creation.
So, Demand Capture, that's really first to step out on, understanding your ICP.
This is where I always start. Who's your Ideal Customer Profile?
And similar to how you would harvest a crop, what tools do you use to attract that ICP?
What channels are they on?
And I think a lot of Demand Gen Managers and Marketers always just fall into the same trap of using the channels that they're very familiar with and not understanding where the ICP is interacting, where their eyes are looking and, and then building programs and campaigns to engage them on the platforms they're already on.
So within Demand Capture, the first piece is you gotta understand your ICP.
The second piece is you have to remove friction.
And this seems like something that is so blatantly obvious, but it's something that we've done at Shopify.
It's something that done at basically every role that I've had a part of.
And so really when you figure out your Capture and removing fiction or sometimes adding it, it's.
It's really understanding your full funnel.
And that doesn't really even sound like something Demand Gen like, but if you're held to a number...
An MQL, an SQL or a self serve number, you need to know where those friction points are.
And so a lot of times what we do is we'll look and look across the full board and map out every single stage of a funnel from the top all the way to the bottom, every single number, every single conversion point and, and figure out where are you leaky.
And it seems like such a simple exercise for Demand Capture, but it's something that rarely Demand Gen Marketers do.
We're very focused on top of the funnel, ad sets, campaigns, content.
Like all the really fun stuff about Marketing, but you never actually sit down and say where are we dropping all the way through the funnel and then how can we mitigate that?
And what you'll find, is you'll find one or two points, and you can really work on increasing those conversion points and make meaningful impact rather than just filling your bucket or filling the funnel with more leads that just leak out.
So again, back to Demand Capture.
You have your ICP, you gotta remove your friction.
And the last piece is I really think is underutilized is just listening to your audience.
This is using Drift when somebody is exiting the page to collect.
Did you get what you were looking for? Yes or no.
Like even just NPS score of satisfaction on the page can give you so much more information about Demand Capture.
And then you have search engines, you have things like SEM Rush.
And so you can really look at like what are your Customer Profiles, right?
You identify your Customer Profile, what are they actually searching for?
And you use what your audience is telling you to then go build those programs.
So that's the Demand Capture side.
And I'll quickly touch on the Demand Creation side because this is I think where Demand Gen traditionally sat, which is like content, right?
It's like content, webinars... It's, it's like "Content is king".
It's content tailored to your Ideal Customer Profile, right?
It's, it's easy to adjust, you know, it's generating a lead, right?
Like this is just traditional Demand Gen.
And outside of content, like basically Lead Generation for demand,
it's really about figuring out problem awareness and solution awareness, and how you want to market, how you want to create that demand for your product.
[06:44.8]
I think there's a couple ways to look at problem awareness versus a solution awareness. Like here's an example, right? So we're at Shopify, right? And we're selling to Brick & Mortar merchants. We want to get them on our Point of Sale and selling online through the platform.
There's one method of Marketing where you could say, “Hey business owner, we have what you need.
This is the future. Selling online and offline together is the way of the future.
It's going to increase your sales and sell through all these channels. It's where you got to be.”
It's one method in thinking in Marketing. The other method is saying, well “Hey business owner, your customers are demanding a different kind of experience.
Your customers want Buy Online, Pick Up in Store.
Your customers want Come in Store, Ship to Home like Allbirds originated.”
That's another way to look at it and market.
And when you start flipping the paradigm there and start saying, well this is what your customers want because that's what's most important to a business owner.
[07:41.5]
And now we can help you service your customers in the way they want to shop. It switches the psychology of the problem and the solution that the business owner has presented. So I got on kind of a tangent there, but you know, the difference is I think you did Inbound Marketing good, that creates demand.
[07:58.7]
But you gotta be really good at capturing it. And if you, if you can't create it and capture it, you know, you're not gonna have any one of those Demand Gen, Lead Gen or Inbound Marketing functions running very well. you obviously know it so well and our listeners are going to get a ton of value from your industry expertise.
[08:20.2]
When you talk about all of the acronyms, I love that you talked about the Ideal Customer Profile, ICP. You talked about MQLs (Marketing Qualified Leads), SQLs (Sales Qualified Leads). And I think when you're talking about Lead Generation, Demand Generation, Inbound Marketing, there's really the consideration in Retail as to whether this is a, merchant that is wanting to sell their products, B2B into Retailers like Target or Walmart, get their gadget on the shelves of those stores, or whether it's a brand doing E commerce.
[08:59.5]
And rather than passing leads from Marketing over to Sales, so that Sales can call them and email them and follow up, there's the strategy of passing them right to the Shopping Cart to purchase online right now.
[09:15.9]
And so there's a lot of different components within Retail and working with brands and merchants specifically that are B2B, are they getting it on the shelves of that Brick & Mortar or dot com store or is it B2C, where they're selling Direct to Consumer?
[09:34.7]
Whether it's the brand on their own site selling Direct to Consumer or it's the Retailer trying to get more traffic in their stores. Yeah, it's always funny. I always. I keep thinking like, MQL / SQL and I say these acronyms and I forget, you know, we all get in this Marketing world that we're in and, you know, ICP is Ideal Customer Profile.
[09:54.8]
You got to say it. And you know, within different roles throughout organizations that have worked in... It's, it's important to tailor that language, actually, which is very funny for like getting buy in, building relationships with product leaders, not using acronyms, defining things very literally.
[10:12.3]
And depending kind of who you're working with, it's funny, you get caught up using these acronyms in your teams. Yeah. And these acronyms, ICP, MQL, SQL, these are some terms that I feel like that shows a lot of interaction between the roles of Demand Generation and Sales.
[10:32.1]
So with that in mind, what would you say is the relationship between Sales and Demand Generation? I've had a lot of different relationships with Sales teams, my career. Some, some great, some need a lot of repairing. Some are, you know, fresh, right.
[10:50.5]
The relationship has to be good. And I've found what is like kind of the key to making that relationship good. And first is that Sales has to have a seat at the table. And I find the best exercise to build relationships with Sales is build a scoring model for Sales together with their Sales Managers.
[11:10.5]
You know, one of the most common things that you're going to get to in Sales and Marketing relationships that causes stress is that the Marketing team creates a Marketing Qualified Lead or a lead that is a fit for our business services. Right. And then Marketers pat themselves on the back and say, "Hey, guys, we did it", right.
[11:25.9]
"We generated a lead." "Let's go." And we passed it to the Sales team, right? And they reach out and, you know, they have thousands of these or hundreds of these, depending on the size and scope of your business. And, you know, you build these scoring models and oftentimes Marketers will say, hey, they, you know, meet the revenue threshold.
[11:41.2]
They're located in the United States and they're, you know, X segment. Like they're a fit for our business. But there's obviously so much intent that's left behind. Whether they can they come from Facebook, did they come from Google? Were they searching for something? That's, you know, I'm searching for a solution to my problem.
[11:56.8]
I come from Facebook. I'm just being targeted by a solution for a problem I didn't know I had. There's many different entrance points. What I find to really solidify that Sales and Marketing relationship is build a lead scoring model together. Because if that Sales Manager is sitting there and they're saying, yep, that's got to be weighted higher, that's got to be weighted lower.
[12:16.2]
And they have that, seat at the table. When you're passing those leads over, there's no more debate around where your scoring model isn't good, they weren't engaged enough, or it's like this or that. Because what will happen is for every five good leads you get one really bad one and those are the ones that get remembered.
[12:32.3]
So getting a seat at the table, having your weekly syncs and just being brutally honest about where you stand with each other and how to make it better. And that usually is a lead scoring model, I think as a first step. I think that's a fantastic point. When you get into Sales and Marketing alignment, the traditional problem is Sales is saying "I can't get any good leads from Marketing". And Marketing is saying, "Sales, I gave you all these great leads; why are you working them?" And coming together with the metrics and the goals and really aligning on that is the real foundation.
[13:07.0]
Great point, Thomas. And to echo that point, a lot of companies now have the role of Chief Revenue Officer, the VP of Sales and Chief Marketing Officer come together under the umbrella of this Chief Revenue Officer who has the responsibility of revenue acceleration by achieving that Sales and Marketing alignment.
[13:28.6]
Now, as far as Demand Generation, it does seem to involve a lot of different types of content... videos, PDFs, all these things in order to create a long term relationship with your customers. So how do we ensure that we're providing the most value to these potential customers, while still keeping Customer Acquisition Cost in check?
[13:52.9]
It's like a tail as old as time. It depends. Yeah, I hate a depends answer. Right? It depends on the organization you're working in though. It really does. And what the appetite for investment from leadership is. Certain organizations you're going to work for, the appetite for leadership is going to be bought into brand building activities... content, webinars, ungated assets like thought leadership.
[14:18.0]
You can build your brand and do a lot of the free activities with really kind of keeping your Customer Acquisition Costs, or your CAC in check. You can do a lot of those. And if you're not promoting them or distributing though, is your customer, Ideal Customer, are they going to see it?
[14:34.9]
Chances are not. You're going to have to throw some dollars behind some kind of distribution or promotion and then it just really comes down to multi touch attribution. You know, if you, if you have a good system to track merchants across the full funnel. Then I mean you can keep adding those touches, you can keep increasing your Top of Funnel or going further up funnel into Marketing.
[14:56.5]
But unless you have good data, like it's going to be super hard. So it's either Option A, is you see these programs as a sunk cost, but you know that they work, right. There's value in content, there's value in thought leadership. There's value in distributing those. And you just got to suck it up and say we can't track that back to the actual customer acquisition and that's just part of our investment strategy as a Marketing team.
[15:18.9]
Or it's you got to get really tight with your data team and your cookies and your UTMs and try to track every touch. So, I think it's hard but if I was going to use like channels for providing value, it's going to be content. And I think the one thing about content to keep in mind is...
[15:35.4]
"Content is Content, without Context" How do you give Content Context? Use a Sales Rep, use a Customer Story. That's where I think you can start adding value into additional touches without really starting to eat away at Customer Acquisition Costs.
[15:52.6]
Those are like emails, those are outbounds from Sales Reps. So you can keep it low using your free platforms in that sense. I love Thomas, how you brought up what is the goal of the campaign?
[16:08.4]
Is it Brand Awareness, Where you're going to be able to add in, if you are doing paid advertising, animation and engagement and interaction, is that your goal? Or is it really just all about placing a static ad and getting that high Click Through Rate?
[16:27.2]
It depends on what you're trying to do. Is that going to bring them right to the product and increase sales? What's the goal? And then I also love how you brought up data, data integrity as the foundation for everything really.
[16:44.2]
Yeah, it's, it's hard... like Reach and Frequency. I mean I think that's another good exercise to look at providing value without increasing costs. What's the average Reach and Frequency you need targeting your customers to get them to convert to like X point. Either like lead generated or first step in the funnel or talk to a Sales Rep or a Drift chat.
[17:03.6]
It kind of changes. And I think the last thing I'll say about, it's like adding value is like when in doubt, don't send an email. Which sounds like the most obnoxious thing to say from a Marketer, but scarcity is actually kind of a good thing in communication. Send something that provides value.
[17:21.1]
Because you wrote an ebook on... you know, "X" topic doesn't actually mean it's relatable for "Y" customer in the funnel at that time. So don't just send it because you have it. Don't just blast people because you can blast them. Be thoughtful about your Marketing.
[17:36.4]
And I think Demand Gen maybe isn't the right word, but Marketers in general have been very eager to send emails to target people. And we see that engagement rates over time across industries have declined. There's fatigue. We look at screens all day, we see emails every day.
[17:51.6]
Why am I going to open this email from you? What is the single purpose of value that customer will get or that potential customer will get? If you can't clearly articulate that, you don't send the touch. Great point. And when you get into Sequential Marketing, Sequential Advertising, Retargeting, whether you're hitting them on the desktop and then they're on their mobile and what cadence, all of that has to be taken into consideration to avoid fatigue and abandonment.
[18:22.3]
I think that's a great point. Yeah, I think that though I keep going on this because it's like out of my mind right now. I think the ones that Marketers mistake, is if you're in a big organization, you have a big customer base you can cross sell into... Oh, it's like, the wolves feeding to send emails to customers to sell their products.
[18:40.3]
I think that's they talk about CAC and I'd say even like brand reputation at that point. Even in the prospect world, or your customers. How frequently are you communicating and what's the purpose behind that communication. On that note, with scarcity, I, feel like everyone can relate to getting emailed a ton of content that just is not relevant to you to the point where you just get into this habit of deleting emails from that sender.
[19:08.6]
And when you're trying to build a relationship with the customer, that's the last reaction that you want your customer to have when encountering your brand. Speaking to the topic of content, we're seeing more and more Marketing content show up, for example with TikTok.
[19:28.0]
With the Shopify / TikTok partnership, what would you say is the unique value that TikTok could bring to merchants? I like new media and like new areas to market. I know, I know all the surfaces so well. I've been doing this for a long time. So it's like, I love to see the emergence of new platforms.
[19:46.8]
What do I think of TikTok and the partnership... First of all, if you're not considering, depending where your demographic of your Ideal Customer Profile sits, if you're not thinking about Marketing on TikTok, I'm kind of shaking my head and saying, well, what are you doing? Because, I mean, your goal is market.
[20:02.7]
Where are my customers looking or my potential customers looking? Where are they spending their time every day, reading? If they're all reading The Economist, okay, don't go market on TikTok. Right? But if they are, hey, well, then TikTok's a great platform for that. I mean, it's massive. So, it's you got a market where your consumer eyeballs are going, right?
[20:21.0]
Where your customer eyeballs are going. And that's very, that's very, very clearly TikTok for the younger generation. And even, I would say, even the older generations are very much getting into it. And so much so, that I saw a Gap ad, a Gap clothing ad the other day.
[20:36.7]
And it was like a Hulu direct one targeting my household, right? And it turned on and I was like, this is a TikTok video. I was like, wait, no, it's not. It's a Gap video. But it was... So it was TikTok style filmed, but it was Gap produced, right?
[20:54.8]
It wasn't an actual TikTok video. Nothing to do with TikTok as a brand. But Gap was taking that same formula of the way the content is consumed, which has become so prominent on Facebook. These like little dances, they shake the screen with the dance move and everything. And it's about clothing.
[21:09.8]
And so literally, Gap is taking what TikTok has made work so well and is so sticky on their platform, and is now trying to take it out of their platform to use in their own Marketing strategy - which just says TikTok is a powerhouse. People are on there and brands are looking to how users are interacting with that style of content and trying to take learnings from it.
[21:31.9]
So the Shopify / TikTok partnership, I mean, I think that's incredible. And that actually really enables TikTok to be more of a commerce platform. And we just know that through consumer behavior, through YouTube stars, through Instagram, that now TikTok. Right, that individuals look to these people for clothing, for styles, for business advice.
[21:52.4]
I mean, I follow a guy who does real estate on TikTok. TikTok's for real estate, like creative guy. How engaging. So it's not just about selling e commerce. It's not just something about clothing products, right? Like TikTok can be used in the style of videos and that media consumption can be used across your business in a way.
[22:08.8]
The real estate guy on TikTok is a great example because like you mentioned, as TikTok's user base grows, it's getting different sorts of audiences joining the platform. I mean just imagine being one of the early users on let's say, Instagram...
[22:27.3]
promoting your brand on there before all of the competition arrives. There has to be something said about getting on a platform early and getting that head start. How would you say that the ads in the style of Yahoo ads for merchants and brands help to reach Demand Generation goals?
[22:48.4]
Yeah, totally. I mean I love it, right? So I'm a line item guy and a data guy. So I look at every single line item, everything I'm spending on for my Marketing team and just an input / output. Right. And I love about ad platforms is it's very clear, input / output is an easy, what's your conversion rate from the platform.
[23:04.8]
And I think every ad platform has their place in your budget. And Yahoo is one of those. And I think again expanding the surface areas in which you can market are going to increase your total brand reach and hopefully increase your sales and you'll have that data to prove it out. I think the Yahoo ads placements are really interesting because it tends to lean further upmarket than Google Display Network would.
[23:29.8]
So it's another place again depending on that Ideal Customer Profile that's, is that a surface area where my potential customers are hanging out? And this is somewhere where I can engage them again. So I love it. Same with TikTok. It's like, hey, these are surface areas. Shopify makes it super easy to connect a brand through these platforms.
[23:45.1]
I think that's empowerment for Marketers. I think that's some great perspective Thomas. And Yahoo is a great platform for the biggest and best in class of brands and Retail advertisers working with clients such as Amazon and Walmart.
[24:03.8]
And I think that it's also important to note that they were acquired by Apollo. So now Yahoo and AOL transition from Verizon, and being a part of Verizon Media, to being a privately held company.
[24:20.1]
So a lot of changes there. New CEO coming over, replacing the prior CEO that came from Alibaba. And now the new CEO came from Tinder. So excited to see about the new era of Yahoo product ads for merchants.
[24:35.9]
And I know they're doing a lot within that Retail vertical. Also the whole Shopify partnership is just a great way for them to reach the SMB market as well. Yeah, that's, yeah.
[24:52.8]
I love working at Shopify for this. Right. Like these partnerships. Right. And you bring up a good point, Preston. It also allows Shopify, you know, the benefit to Shopify as well here and our merchants. These partnerships are great. Right. Like it's democratization of selling and I think that's what Shopify represents so well.
[25:08.5]
In compared to like an Amazon, we want our customers to own the customer. That's, that's not our business. You own the relationship with your customer. And I think that is really where the future is going. With privacy, with data, with Marketing, the business will have more control and the individual will have more control as well.
[25:25.5]
Yep, great point. We're headed towards a cookie less world. We'll see what happens with Google. But some of the other browsers have already kind of rolled that out and let's see how all that unfolds with sort of a connected ID or a next gen solution to get around that cookie less world where we're headed from a data privacy standpoint.
[25:47.4]
Great point. Yeah. What's the one avenue of Demand Generation that you too often see companies overlooking? This one maybe feels a little bit temporary for me, but I feel like in hindsight, which is always funny, this is something maybe I could have had a better eye on in my career, which is I focus too much, I think on perfection and larger scale campaigns, multi touch or Sequential Campaigns.
[26:15.6]
This comes back to my point earlier about really understanding every single part of the funnel. How many come in, how many convert from every single channel, every single stage through the funnel. It's a nightmare to get all the data depending how big you're with the scale of your company is. But when I go think about this, the data side of it, mapping these conversion drop off points and I think about how I operated previously.
[26:36.9]
It's like, I think a lot of us just like we want to make these things pretty, imperfect and actually we sometimes hold up shipping things for a week, for two weeks. And that little iterative change that you're making on pages... Maybe that's a 1 or 2% bump on conversion. Right. And those are incremental, those are meaningful bumps.
[26:53.7]
But those need to be achieved in weekly test cadences or bi weekly test cadences. Focusing on perfection, you can't say my assets are going to be good and beautiful and perfect if you're on a one or two week sprint schedule. But I would argue, and I'm very in the overseeing part here, is I think that too many Marketers focus on the perfection.
[27:11.3]
They don't focus on rapid testing. You're going to surpass if you get that 1 or 2% bump, but it holds up a test a couple times in a row. You could have bumped out three or four more tests by that point and understood so much more about how to build a page or convert merchants better, whatever your customers are.
[27:26.6]
So I think it's focusing too much on perfection. And so I think the answer to that, the solution to that, is get your weekly or biweekly tests set up, right. Those are copy, like your header copy, that's your subtext copy, that's little iterative things where you can get data, you can learn what's resonating more.
[27:44.5]
And then plan those bigger swings. Are we going to try a whole new redesign? Are we going to try a different form entrance point? What are those bigger, more resource intensive swings that you want to take? And find the balance between little iterative tests and big swings that you know are going to require more of that perfection because they have more eyes on them.
[28:01.4]
So just really. I think that's the thing Marketers overlook is I strive for perfection, but we hold up, rapidly testing. I love being aggressive and I have, always throughout my career kind of had the motto, don't necessarily ask for permission if you need to, every once in a while beg for forgiveness.
[28:20.9]
But you're going to get more pats on the back, moving fast... Yeah, totally. You got to balance, you know, what's it? "Good, fast and cheap" Right? You can pick two. Right. And I think that, I think the "fast" is where I find myself falling and why I find Marketers should be in today's day and age, we should be more like product in a way that is constantly, constantly testing and not just, finding what works and sitting on it or camping on it, like continuing to push that envelope.
[28:49.6]
I appreciate that topic being brought up because I feel like no matter what you're working on, there's going to be that challenge of finding the balance between quality and timeliness. Thomas, thanks so much for joining us today Yeah, thanks guys for having me. Nick and Preston, it's been great.
[29:06.0]
What's the best way for our users to get in touch with you, Thomas? How should they reach out? LinkedIn. I'm sure you'll throw my profile on there, Preston. You can connect that way. Shoot me a message with anything about Demand Gen. If you just want to talk about it. I could talk about Marketing all day, but doing this for a long time, and I think there's never a right answer.
[29:26.1]
It's what's the situation? And what's the goal? And then you tailor your solution depending on that. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for being on the show with us today. This was great to have you. Great to get your perspective. You're truly an industry leader in this space, working for one of the top companies, and we are just really appreciative of your time.
[29:47.7]
So thanks so much, Thomas. Yeah, thanks, guys. Talk to you later. Thank you. Thank you for listening to today's episode. We gained some valuable insights from Thomas Cyr around Demand Generation. From building out Demand Gen programs, to aligning Sales and Marketing around measurable outcomes.
[30:08.6]
We truly appreciate Thomas sharing his expertise and perspective, which offers some valuable takeaways, no matter where you sit in the funnel, whether you're focused on top of funnel awareness, pipeline creation, or driving revenue impact.
[30:25.2]
Be sure to connect on LinkedIn too. Profile links will be included in the podcast description. And to subscribe to our YouTube podcast for the latest episodes. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of The Filtered Brew Podcast.
[30:42.1]
We hope you enjoyed the conversation and took away some insights that you can apply to your own digital strategy. Be sure to visit TheFilteredBrew.com It's the place to go for the latest software tech insights and where you can find more episodes and additional resources.
[31:00.8]
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[31:18.0]
Until next time, keep your ideas brewing and visit TheFilteredBrew.com
